On Tuesday, May 22, 2012, Brian Auten, who runs the excellent Apologetics resource site
Apologetics 315, created a blog post titled,
Terminology Tuesday: Determinism at his site. In this post, he gave a definition of the philosophical and theological term "Determinism" from a reference book.
Here is the text of that post:
Determinism: The
view that all natural events, including human choices and actions, are
the product of past states of affairs in accordance with causal
necessity. Thus the determinist holds that, given the state of the
universe at any particular time, plus the causal laws that govern events
in the natural world, the state of the universe at every future time is
fixed. Various kinds of determinism are possible depending on the
nature of the causally determining forces. Most determinists today are
scientific determinists who believe the laws of nature are the
determining factors, but theological determinism, in which God directly
determines every event, is also possible.1
I posted two short Bible passages, Ephesians 1:11 and Isaiah 46:9-11 to comment section, which I understand to be speaking of God's fore-ordination of all things and exhaustive providential governance over all creation. Someone going by the handle LittleGoose responded with some questions about Calvinism and theological Determinism. Next, I posted a response, attempting to answer those questions. Next, a man named Drew responded, with an argument meant to disprove Compatibilism. This is a theological position that seeks to harmonize and explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and governance of creation, specifically His fore-ordination of all things that come to pass, with the freedom of man's will and his responsibility before God to obey His commands.
Drew and I continued presenting argument and counter-argument several times, until I asked Brian for permission to copy the posts to this site, so that we could continue the discussion here. I thought that, since posts were getting long (mine especially) and the discussion theologically deep, it would be best not to highjack Brian's site to continue, but to move it elsewhere. Brian graciously agreed to allow me to copy the text of the discussion, as it has gone so far, to this site. It is my hope that Drew, and anyone else who is interested in this important subject will come to this site and engage in further discussion here.
What follows is the text of the discussion. After that, my response to Drew's most recent post. We can continue the discussion in the comment section following.
Ex N1hilo
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LittleGoose
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Ex N1hilo
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Drew
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Ex N1hilo
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Drew
said...
Ex N1hilo
said...
Drew
said...
Ex N1hilo
said...
Brian Auten
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Ex N1hilo
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Brian Auten
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Ex N1hilo
said...
Drew,
You wrote:
My whole point is that it is
LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE that any determined act can be free.
If this is logically impossible, it
should not be difficult to demonstrate that it is. Will you please
do so? So far all we have is your bare assertion of this.
Romans
8
states that God has chosen to love us, and that forces outside
ourselves cannot pry us away from God.
That's not what the text says. It says
that no created thing can pry us away from God.
It explicitly includes “things future”, at least some of which
you want to place outside of God's creative decree. This includes
you, doesn't it? Aren't you a created thing? Or
is that the real point of contention in this discussion? Is it not
your position that there are aspects of your being—your free will,
your decisions, the acts you choose to commit—that are uncreated?
1. If X is not up to us, then
anything X entails is not up to us, provided that the fact of the
entailment is not up to us.
Premise 1 is the presupposition, the
lens through which you see this issue. I used to think that way too;
although I would not have known how to express it in philosophical
terms, as you have done. I would have said, “You can't blame me
for something if I didn't have any say in the matter.” I might
also state this idea in positive terms, “You cannot credit me with
any good that I did not have a say in bringing about.”
The problem with premise 1 is that
Scripture explicitly teaches the contrary. And it gives us many
counterexamples to premise 1. For this reason, I have had to abandon
this principle. I have had to say “Let God be true and every man a
liar.” I had to admit that I was the liar; denying God's sovereign
providential governance over all created things.
Here are just two examples of God
ordaining men's acts; men freely choosing to commit those acts, and
then God holding them accountable for those acts. There are many
more.
In 2nd Samuel 1:24, God
moved David to conduct a sinful census. So eager was David to
conduct this prideful census, that he overruled the advice of all his
most trusted advisers, who pleaded with David not to do it. Then,
God punished Israel for this rebellious act of David's.
In Romans 1:24-32, Paul tells us that
God gave men and women up to a debased mind, to dishonorable
passions; so that they would do what ought not to be done
(homosexuality, murder, lying, slander, etc.). Although they know
that those who do such things deserve death for them, they do them
and give hearty approval to others to commit the same sinful acts!
In both these examples—and there are
many more—God determined that men and women commit certain acts,
and; as a result, these men and women then chose to commit them.
With gusto they made these choices.
Perhaps you will argue that, these
instances, in which God moved the hearts of men to commit sinful
acts, represent the judgment of God on them for previous sins that
they have committed—the text mentions idolatry specifically. If
that is your position, I agree. Further, I would contend that it is
the teaching of Scripture that all sinful acts that men have
committed, since the fall of Adam, along with the 'sin nature' we
have inherited from him, do represent the righteous judgment of God
upon them, as individuals for their previous sins, and on humanity as
a fallen race, for the sin of Adam.
But the question here is not "Does
God judge sin by giving men up to a reprobate mind in order that they
will commit more and greater acts of sin?" I hope we would
agree the answer is "yes." It's not a happy doctrine, but
the Bible does teach it explicitly. No, the point of contention
between us is whether man had any say in God determinating to judge
sin in this way. I know that God did not consult me about this
matter. And there is no record of God taking counsel from Adam on
this matter. Perhaps He consulted with you, and incorporated this
manner of judgment into His response to sin, based on your input or
on your permission?
No. Nor did God consult with any
creature when He determined that He would impute Adam's sin to us, as
taught in Romans, chapter 5. Nor did God consult any creature when
He determined that we would inherit the propensity to do evil from
Adam, indeed that we would be incapable of doing anything that is
pleasing to God, in our natural state, apart from God's redeeming
grace. God did not consult any of us when He determined that he
would judge us for our sins, and that that judgment would include
removing his hand of restraint against sin; thereby moving our hearts
to sin all the more in frequency and degree. Neither did God consult
you or I when He determined everlasting fire as the final punishment
for our sins.
You seem to object to premise
1, which I find pretty ridiculous. It should be quite obvious that if
something is not up to us, what it entails is not up to us. It is
used all the time in court.
This is what our discussion has been
all about, isn't it? “If X is not up to us, then anything X
entails is not up to us, provided that the fact of the entailment is
not up to us.”
When you point out that this principle
is used in court, I take you to mean that blame cannot be assigned to
a party for anything entailed by a decision or determination made,
not by that party, but by another party. That this is a principle of
the American system of jurisprudence, or that of any nation, is not a
problem for the system of “Divine Jurisprudence” that the Bible
reveals.
The principle of the imputation of
another's guilt, and of the imputation of an alien righteousness, is
not to be found in man's systems of justice. But it is the way God
deals with human beings.. Indeed, I believe this is precisely why
Proverbs 28:5 tells us "Evil men do not understand justice, but
those who seek the Lord understand it completely." The justice
of God is unlike man's justice. And lost sinners have no idea how it
works. It is other-worldly. It does not work according to common
sense or according to our intuitions about justice. But there is no
logical contradiction in it
2nd Corinthians 5:21
(ESV) For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in
him we might become the righteousness of God.
Adam sinned. As a result, death has
come to everyone. Because, in this one act of the one man, Paul
tells us, “All sinned.” Romans 5: 12-13
Do you reject God's imputation of
Adam's sin to you? I hope that you do not, since it (the doctrine of
“original sin” as it is commonly known) is the teaching of God's
word. If you do accept this doctrine, then you have contradicted
premise 1, as it is applied to court cases. Do you see this? This
imputation was God's determination alone. You didn't decide that He
should impute Adam's sin to you.
If, on the other hand, you reject the
doctrine of original sin, you also reject the imputation of Christ's
righteousness to you; which is the only provision God has given for
our salvation.
Now, you may respond, "I'll take
the imputation of Christ's righteous on my behalf. But I don't want
God imputing Adam's sin to me. God cannot logically do so without my
consent." But consider that, if it is illogical for God to
impute Adam's guilt to you, how could it not be equally illogical for
Him to impute to you Christ's righteous? Further, if you have not
inherited a propensity to sin from Adam, what do you need Christ's
righteousness for? You have the ability to do for yourself what God
requires.
I think we may be rehashing the
controversies of Augustine vs. Pelagius, Luther vs. Erasmus, and
Molina vs. Turretin. Are you familiar with these historical
controversies?
Finally, if human beings were truly
free, in the sense in which you mean, could they not simply say,
"Alright, I have sinned enough. I will stop now."? But
they cannot. In John 8:34 we read,
Jesus answered them, “Truly,
truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
And in Romans 8:7,
For the mind that is set on the
flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law;
indeed, it cannot.
They had no choice in God's choosing to
judge their sins in the way He did, by turning them over to a
depraved mind, that they should sin all the more. This principle was
God's decision and His alone. And as a result of this determination,
sin multiplies as humans multiply. We see this repeated throughout
scripture. There are many examples.
Instead, they have a sort of freedom
that does not imply independence from God's decrees, but rather, a
sort of freedom in which they choose as their hearts desire; those
hearts having been inclined toward evil or toward good, as God has
decreed for His purposes.
The king's heart is a stream of
water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Proverbs 21:1 ESV